By day Alex is a fractional COO who helps technology companies grow quickly without falling apart.
By night he’s a “curator of people” who builds communities wherever he goes around the world, from impromptu 14-person dinners at conferences to a pop-up co-living space in Colombia.
In this episode we discuss:
- What pushed each of us to become digital nomads
- What’s holding most people back from going nomadic?
- Will there be a new wave of nomads post-COVID?
- What people struggle with once they go nomadic
- Alex’s experience traveling abroad during the pandemic
- How our travel styles change after years of being digital nomads
- Traveling to countries where you don’t know anyone and dealing with loneliness on the road
- Alex’s “Pop-Up Coliving” experiment in Medellin, Colombia
- How to meet people and make lasting connections at conferences
- The origins of Airbnb and how Alex got started building coliving communities
- How to meet more people and make friends while coworking
- Staying productive with the pomodoro technnique
- Setting boundaries and meeting friends during the pandemic
- Keep communities going when everyone is stuck at home
Links to People, Articles, and Books Mentioned in this Episode:
- Alex on LinkedIn
- Never Eat Alone by Keith Ferrazzi
- Christine McDannell – Coliving Consultant
- How to Meet People While You Travel and Avoid Becoming a Lonely Digital Nomad
Listen and Subscribe on:
Transcript
Neville:
Alex, welcome to never normal.
Alex:
Thanks for having me.
Neville:
My pleasure. Alex, you are a fellow digital nomad as have been about two years now, is that right?
Alex:
I’m calculating in my head. I think it’s two years.
Neville:
The last place you lived before going fully nomadic, I think it was Oakland, right? You were in the SF Bay area
Alex:
In the Bay area for almost a decade.
Neville:
I guess you’re a hipster then, because you were probably a year and a half or so ahead of the trend. I mean, since COVID hit and since remote work became an option for many more people, there’s been this big sort of, at least, at least according to Twitter, like there’s been this Exodus from Silicon Valley, people are realizing that I think the quality of life and the cost of living just doesn’t make any sense there and in San Francisco in that area. Was that, your experience and what pushed you as well? Or what was the main kind of driver for you to pick up and move and just go nomadic?
Alex:
Yeah, I understand that driver to get out because of the price and you don’t necessarily have to be there with remote work. It wasn’t my driver. My driver was more that I’ve always wanted to travel and explore the world and I’ve always wanted more freedom in my work. And so I finally, after some exposure to digital nomads, after reading some books after maybe some therapy and counseling, I finally got to a place where I felt confident enough to give it a shot. So it really, it was, this is the thing that I’ve wanted to do and I finally felt comfortable starting to do it. So it really wasn’t a financial thing.
Neville:
That’s pretty similar for me. Like, yeah, I just wanted to travel. I wasn’t, I wasn’t so much running away from something back home as running towards all the other interesting places that there are to live. And I still feel torn to this day between like wanting to spend time around friends and family back home and wanting to just, you know, explore new places, be in different places, experience living in, you know, Tokyo or here in Spain or tons of other places around the world. I’d like the opportunity cost of settling in any one place just feels so high to me.
Alex:
Yeah. I always had, I I’m remembering now I always had this dream to live and work in another country is actually a goal. I had written down probably like six or seven years ago and I got the first opportunity to actually have a job where I was sent to India to be a liaison for a client there. And so I lived in, worked in India for about a year, came back for a couple of weeks, every three months or so. And so that was the first time I got to do it, which was really opened it up. So it really was just about if I don’t, if I don’t start doing this now and I let more time pass, I’m going to be going to be disappointed that I, that I waited
Neville:
Forgot about that. Yeah. You, you lived in India for a while, so you already, by the time you sorta went nomadic, you’d already had experience, not just traveling out of the U S of course, but actually like living and working and, and sort of doing that because you were, you were still working for a us company, but you were based in the Indian offices.
Alex:
That’s right. Yeah. Well the clients, the clients office. Yeah. And so I, I was very lucky to get to explore while, while being paid to do it, but then
Neville:
We’re back in the Bay area after that, and living in and working like a normal tech job there before going to nomadic. So I’m kind of curious, like, how does your, how does your lifestyle compare, you know, today being a digital nomad, sort of having the freedom to live and work wherever you want to what’s your day-to-day life was like in between, like after you’d come back from India. And when you were living in the Bay area, just before you sort of make this change,
Alex:
It’s a lot less driving now because I don’t, I don’t have a commute. I don’t have a place. I don’t have this feeling like I have to be someplace at the night and I have to be someplace in the morning and I have to get from one place to another. My last sort of in-office job was I was, I was living in Oakland and the job was in a place called Redwood city, which is over basically over two bridges, depending on how you travel. So you can go over one bridge into San Francisco and then, and then drive down all the one-on-one traffic. Or you can go over the Bay bridge either way. It’s a 90 minute commute. It’s a, it’s, it’s like 25 miles, but it’s a 90 minute commute. And so I’m commuting three hours a day when I commute. And that w and my best energy was gone, right.
Alex:
By the time I get to the office to the point that I had, I’ll say negotiations rather than, than arguments with with the higher ups about when when I was going to be in the office. So I actually negotiated, I think, two days at home, two days working from home. And so, and then, and then I would say, you know, I’ll be in by this time and I’m going to leave for sure, by like two 30 in the afternoon. So I started and I CA I came in with, again, this is practice. I came in with some practice and some mindset around what my lifestyle is going to be. And so I was already pushing for the lifestyle that I wanted by saying, well, I can certainly come to the office some of the time, but I will not do it all of the time. Yeah.
Neville:
And, and I guess I lied a little bit. I said a few minutes ago that I wasn’t running away from anything, but I will say, yeah, absolutely commuting. And just that, that daily grind of like, I mean, you know, it’s, it’s a meme at this point of like, you know, escape the nine to five or a cliche, rather that, that was definitely the non-negotiable for me, at some point in my life, I just decided, like, I’m not doing this anymore. And I had, actually, for me, it was sort of a phased approach, right. Like I had. And it sounds like for you also, at least for a few days a week, like I had stopped working in an office. I had already left a traditional job and was working, you know, for myself and mostly from like a office for years before I actually went nomadic.
Neville:
And the reason I’m kind of asking all of this and, and where I want to go with this is for me for the longest time, I’ve, you know, I’ve advised other people who want to, who want to take this path. They want to become digital nomads, or just start businesses and do things, you know, kind of like that, as far as like the nomadic side goes, the sticking point for most people has been, how do you make money? Right? Like there’s so many blog posts and books and online courses and everything else out there that deal with, you know, what kind of insurance should you have, or do you need travel insurance? And, you know, how do you find places to stay and what brand of backpack should you buy? And here’s how many ounces it should be. And, and, you know, by this Merino wool sweater and these ultra light pants, and you only need three pairs of underwear, I think there’s so much of that stuff. And it’s useful. I mean, I read plenty of those packing lists.
Alex:
I did a month, a month searching for the perfect backpack. I think I found it, but so I’m on the Reddit, I’m on the Reddit forum for backpacks for one bag. And yeah, I did a month of research on backpacks, a load.
Neville:
So maybe it’s just that sort of internet filter bubble effect where like, because I’m in that community, I see so much of that stuff. And I feel like there’s just a ton of it out there in terms of yet packing lists and, and, you know, recommendations and a lot of affiliate marketing for various, you know, products and, and again, like insurance and things like that. Well, most people that I’ve met, that’s not what holds them back. What holds them back is they have a job or they need an income. And they just don’t know how to translate that from, Hey, I’m stuck in the office to, you know, I have a way of making money and enough money to live on that allows me to, to be free and to travel and all of that. And so, so for years and years, that’s been the sticking point and some of us fortunately have been able to figure that out for ourselves.
Neville:
But a lot of people, from what I hear anybody talking to them are sort of aspirational that they would like to live this way, but they just, they can’t crack that piece of it. And all of a sudden the pandemic hits, and now we have millions and millions of people in the U S and around the world who are suddenly able to work from wherever, right? Like businesses kind of forced to allow employees to work remotely. And so far that the, you know, travel’s mostly closed. Although we’re going to talk about that. That’s meant just sort of working from home and not actually like, you know, taking their work on the road, but I suspect, and I want to hand this back over to you in a moment, but I suspect many of those people, once the world gets sort of back to what we’ll say more normal, many of those people will have the ability to then continue doing those jobs remotely.
Neville:
And some of them will, will take those jobs on the road if not become fully nomadic. I think it might be normal for a family to say, you know, instead of just going on vacation for a week or two, say like a wealthy family with two working parents might say, Hey, let’s go to Italy for three months this summer. And just, you know, we’ll rent an Airbnb, we’ll stay there. Mom and dad will kind of alternate their schedules to take turns working and being with the kids. Like I could totally see that being a new normal for some families. I mean, you’ve gone through this transition fairly recently. What do you think is it, are the people who are digital nomads now, is that sort of the market for digital nomads, or do you sort of agree with that kind of hypothesis that remote work was? What’s holding people back and now that people can work remotely, we’re going to see a, like a big wave once travel opens up.
Alex:
I’ve been asked this question before. And I, and I was asked in last March, so almost a year ago when all this was starting up, like a lot more like a big wave. And I honestly think the answer’s no, because I don’t think that’s, what’s whole, that’s all that’s holding people back. I think, I think this trend and we’re seeing in the housing market, and this is what I said. I wish I knew how to make money off of this kind of stuff, because I had the answer. I said, I think there are a lot of people who are sitting in these big city meccas who are there for the work, for the jobs that make money. And they’re, they’re really wishing that they could go buy a house and a white picket fence and be in the suburbs and be in a place where they can park their car.
Alex:
Like they can not in the city where they can have a backyard, like they can not in the city where they can have where there, where there are children and elderly and community and all this stuff, which isn’t really in a, in a lot of the, the cities, the mega cities. But if you go back to your, your home in the suburbs, there aren’t any jobs to pay for the house. And so like a generation before us, you could do both. You could, you could work perhaps on the, on the factory floor or whatever the local, you know, in the local jobs and you could pay for a mortgage. And now you can’t do both of those things. You, it feels like you have to choose to go to the city Mecca and get the job that pays or stay in somehow scrimp and save for the house.
Alex:
You can’t do both, but suddenly you can suddenly with remote work, these people who are in the Mecca for the jobs can keep the jobs and go to the place where it’s more fun. And so I think these not more fun, but more what people imagine themselves doing while Ray, while raising a family in their thirties and forties. I think the image that a lot of people and I, and I say this as a person out in the world being social and, and someone who dates other people and someone, you know, who’s when I talk to people about what they really want, they describe not often traveling around the world forever and ever, they often describe settling into this kind of idyllic life. And so I think now there’s an opportunity for people to give that a shot. So, yeah, I think this does, for people who have been dreaming about it, like you were like, I was, it’s become a lot easier to, you can go do it if you’re, if you’re one of the people who dreams about it.
Alex:
But I think, I don’t think it’s a normal thing to want that. I mean, yeah, to go see the world for a couple of weeks or for maybe for maybe six months or, you know, how they, in Europe, they take that, that skip year well for college and they go backpacking through Europe as a young person. Yeah. I think people want to do that, but I honestly don’t think the majority of people want to make this a lifestyle. I do. You do a lot of, a lot of people that we talk to in our, in our, in our community, but I just, I keep being reminded again and again, that I’m in the, I’m often in this little, like little subculture called never normal, so
Neville:
You’re not far off, right?
Alex:
Yeah. Yeah.
Neville:
It’s kind of the counterpoint to exactly what I said right. Is that, that those people who, who are willing to, to live this way, it’s already pretty unorthodox. And and like, so look, if you can’t crack the, the, you know, the, how to make money while living this way, maybe you just don’t really want to live this way. Right. Like, so, so, and, and I’m sort of, of two minds. I can, I can see both points. I think making something easier and more accessible will encourage more people. But I think there’s also, there’s also something in between backpacker hopping between different cities in Southeast Asia every few days. And I bought a house in such and such suburb, and I just plant myself there for the rest of our life, for the rest of my life as maybe our parent’s generation kind of was expected to do.
Neville:
And they also had one job for many years. I could see people doing this is basically the plan I’m on short stints in places. It almost seems kind of like the natural evolution. I don’t want to speak for the entire community, but have a lot of the nomads I’ve known. They go from that kind of like, you know, itchy, wanderlust, you know? Yeah. I want to be Tokyo. I want to go to Dubai. I want to see, Oh, Turkey sounds cool. Hey, my friends are all going to South America next month. I’m going to tag along
Alex:
And then you go, I’m so tired. After about six months, I’m so tired.
Neville:
Do you have this like bucket list for the first few months or years that you follow? And then you’re like, okay, I just want to, I want to have a gym that I go to, and it’s the same one, you know, and I know where the squat rack is. And like, you know, I want to have a consistent whatever from right.
Alex:
I see that nice lady at, I see that nice lady at the bodega. And I’ve been hearing and managing Colombia for four-ish months now since October. And I’m looking into a, I’m working on getting a a visa right now to learn Spanish and stay in the country. So I don’t have to hop out now and I get more than six months this year. I’m planning to stay as much as I can in 2021. That’s the plan right now. And a big part of that. And I, and I think you’re trying to give me the segue here is I think that people, when they’re sitting in their, their original homes and they’re doing their work and they’re, you can’t imagine, it’s hard to imagine the life that you will have while you’re traveling around. And so if you’re trying to imagine what’s the replacement life look like, can you see yourself?
Alex:
Well, I can see myself now. I can see myself working remotely or in the office, because a lot of what I do, it’s on Slack or it’s a phone call or it’s, it’s type, some things watch the project management boards do that, do that kind of stuff. So I can imagine how that day, that part of my day will be replaced that, that, you know, six to 10 hours, depending on how we’re working, I can, I can envision that. Cause it looks kind of the same. I’m sitting at a desk like surface with my laptop and doing laptop things. So done. That’s easy, but what happens outside of that workspace when I’m not sleeping and not eating breakfast, it’s, it’s social, it’s social, it’s, it’s being out among people. And I know how social works, where, where I am, know how community works. If I’m living close to my family, I go see my family. If I’m living close to my, my friends or my church community or whatever it is, it’s a social thing and there’s consistency to it. And I can’t imagine how to replace that. So that, that, that other bit, right, that, that other six to eight hours in a day, that, that weekend activity what replaces that. And so I think community comes into that.
Neville:
Yeah. I w I do want to dig into that because I mentioned, you know, finding work or finding a way to make money as the most common concern. I think that that is the thing that holds people back. As I said, however, among people who actually do figure that out and go nomadic, the most common thing that I hear from them is exactly what you’re getting at. And also probably the most common question I get from people who are, you know, okay, the most common questions are usually like, what’s your favorite country or, or something along those lines, but digging a little bit deeper. The thing that comes up often is, you know, how do you make friends or don’t you get lonely or something like that. Especially before now I’m married. I have a baby, like, it’s, you know, it’s pretty obvious, you know, who I’m hanging out with and what I’m doing, but when you’re a single guy, especially traveling or single girl traveling it’s, it, it comes up often, you know, you sort of leave this friend group and family group back home, and you go travel for a while and you’re not seeing any of them.
Neville:
So the natural question is like, Oh, you must get, you know, if you’re changing cities often, like you must, if you’re traveling by yourself, you must get lonely. I actually even wrote a, I can link to it in the show notes. I wrote a blog post about how to make friends and meet people on the road because this question came up so many times, but this is really where I want to, I want to talk more about what you do, because my, my version of this it’s, it’s not transactional. Exactly, but it’s basically just tactics. It’s like, you can go to couch, surfing meetups. Like you can use this app. You can, you can go hang out at like a hostel, you can find local events that there’s basically some kind of like simple tactics that, that work, whether you’re at home or you’re on the road. It’s just like, if you know, zero people in this city, here’s how you can meet a few of them. That’s not exactly a community. And watching you over the years, I’ve seen you create communities on the road as you go in different places in groups that we’ve been in. And so I’d love to, yeah, just dig more into that. Like, how do you create communities wherever you go,
Alex:
And you know what it’s, it’s out of desperation and, and I’ll, I’ll share something that’s super dramatic. I I used to date someone from from Kenya, who’s in the U S for a long time. And, and what I found out was that when you, when you’re, when you when you’re from another country and you’re in this country, you’re those people are constantly surrounded by the people from their own country. And, and, and, and so when I was in that, I, I meet a bunch of Kenyans and there, if they were back in Kenya, they might not be friends, but they’re friends here because they kind of have to be in, they check in on each other. And this happens with a lot of communities who come into a foreign land. And I remember asking about this, or maybe overhearing a conversation. And what I ever heard was, if you, if I die in my apartment, no one will know, which is just like, I know it’s to like, take it up to like, to a super, but the thing is like, I’ve, I honestly, cause I traveled by myself here and there I’ve had moments where I was like, if I like slipped in the shower and like cracked my elbow or something, no one.
Alex:
And like, couldn’t get up for a while. Like no one could help me. No one would know, no one knows I’m here. You know, that first, like few days it can feel so lonely. And it’s like, literally, like if something happens to me that not my, my family won’t find out about it. Like, I don’t know. I just, I have that the back of my bide sometimes they’re like, Oh man, this is actually a really hard thing. And that can be true. I mean, you don’t have to be a digital nomad to experience that you can experience that, just moving to a new city which is what we do again and again and again, but that’s not my desperation. I guess my desperation is I just, I like it. I need, I need community and social social stuff in my life.
Neville:
Yeah. You’re a fellow extrovert. You, I mean, it’s having some time alone with your thoughts or just quiet time to work is useful. But I think, yeah, you, you know, you finish six to 10 hours at a desk like surface, as you said. And and that’s, that’s my favorite punk band, by the way, desktop
Alex:
2006 LP was six to 10 hours
Neville:
And you’re ready for some like social interaction. Right. And when you’re back home, you, you, most people have what I would call like low effort friends. And that’s not a judgment on the friends. It’s a judgment on sort of like the friendships. And it’s like, basically you don’t have to think much. You can just pick up your phone and like text someone and be like, Hey, what are you guys up to? Or what are you up to? And and, and without really spending much effort, you can just have plans. And when we travel and you’re in a new city that, that goes away, there is no just kind of like send a one-line text and have plans for them.
Alex:
Well, I’ll share a couple of things. I think that’s right. W this December through January, I opened up a house. I rented out a boutique hotel. I think eight rooms. We had 12 people altogether come and stay with me for a month. So we, we got together at the beginning of December, hung out through Christmas. Through the new years, we just had a great time arranged dinners. I set up local tours. We had a chef come in, we had an opening ceremony. We had a closing ceremony. We participated in a beautiful December tradition, December 7th is the night of the bailouts of the candles. And so families and communities in Columbia get together. I believe it’s, I don’t understand everything about it, but it involves an honoring of the Virgin Mary and the Catholic religion. And we light light candles and just get, get together.
Alex:
And so we had that ceremony together. So it was that people in the house, as well as a handful of friends who probably had 17, 18 people on the rooftop. I had one of the people I’ve met this time. Last year in Thailand, we’ve now hung out together. She’s I feel like almost followed me into four countries. Now. I went to Mexico immediately after, and she said, you’re in Mexico. Okay. You, you find a place, you find an apartment building that has my own room and and I’m going to be there. And so we we’ve met us in Thailand, Omar, who I believe, you know, who I’ve met more than more time with outside of the U S and in the U S even though he lives in LA and I live in San Francisco where I’ve lived in that area, he’s in the apartment just went for a workout. So these are the opportunities.
Neville:
Yeah. I’ve had a few of these kinds of travel friends, right. Fellow nomads, and other people who are just like more free than the average person who you can send a text to and be like, Hey, I’m in country X. And they’re like, cool, I’ll see you there. But that’s, that’s not most people. And I get the sense that, that those are not the only people that you’re hanging out with. I mean, you mentioned like, you know, something like a dozen or two people who joined you. So this was in the house that you had the opening and closing ceremony. I didn’t know about that. That’s great. So you had this house, that was, it was actually a hotel. And so you rented out an entire hotel, and this was in, in, in Columbia where you are now. Right. So how do you even begin? Because, I mean, this sounds like first of all, a huge amount of organization and hassle, like, how do you, how do you even start something like that?
Alex:
You really work your way up to it. I mean, it’s something that I’ve been, it’s been a, it’s been on my mind to do for maybe six months or so, so most of the year, but I’m trying to think this through, because I have a couple of thoughts. One is I was introduced to the idea of co-living like the term co-living through, through the co-living community and podcasts through I’m drawing a blank on her name right now. She, I met her at the nomad summit in Vegas. I think it’s Christine. And she runs kendra.io. So like, that was cool. And so I looked into setting up a co-living house, but that never quite worked out the way I thought I’d like it to. And then Neville, you and I are, are, are, are joined through what I like to call a better. Man’s a better man’s club where we got together for conferences every quarter.
Alex:
And they’d all, they’d often be in this very expensive, fancy hotel. And I never wanted to spend that much money on the very fancy, expensive hotel. And I would arrange an Airbnb with more rooms and invite other people to join me there. The other people who don’t want to be in the hotel, and often I’d find that we got to, we had more fun together because we’re in a shared, like house running through the kitchen, trying to figure out the bathroom situation, walking out to breakfast together in California. I was trying to think of the exact neighborhood. We’d jump into the ocean together. So, so I’ve got this, these little tiny bits of practice of arranging of housing for people, events, for people just bringing people together, dinners, things like that. So it starts, I think with a bunch of like little, little pieces of practice over the years, that build up to a place where I felt confident enough that, Hey, I can, I can, I can facilitate this. It was a lot of work. And, and I learned a lot and I would definitely, I’m definitely able to to outsource a lot of it for the next time. But I, I I’m inspired to try to do it maybe once a year. I’m not inspired to do it all year long, but maybe like once a year I’ll I’ll, I’ll do that again.
Neville:
Just, just putting the pieces together. So the co-living spaces for, for anyone who doesn’t know, basically shared housing of some kind, just like a coworking space, you have a bunch of people who are working for like different companies are all sharing an office space in this case. Co-Living your, it’s not quite a dorm where everybody’s just got like a bed in a giant room, but it’s also not quite like a regular apartment building where everybody has like a full apartment with their own kitchen. Usually it’s like, you have a private bedroom and probably a private bathroom, and then maybe like a shared kitchen or something like that, a shared living room. And these, these spaces exist now more or less all over the world. There’s, there’s probably a co-living space that’s popped up in just about every city, but usually they’re, they’re like a business run by someone else. And so what you did was organize effectively, like a pop-up co-living. So it was a, it was a space that you organized that only existed for whatever it was two months and everyone there was
Alex:
I’m writing down, I’m writing down pop-up co-living yeah,
Neville:
It was because he had a pop up.
Alex:
And I would say it’s like roommates with intention.
Neville:
When you say intention, is there something that you select for in those people? I mean, like, not seems like the basic filter, right? Like not going to stiff me on the bill seems like another one, but beyond that, do you have like a sort of selection process that you use or, or, or how do you attract the right people to a space like
Alex:
The filter? Cause these are, these are people that I know. So I think there is, we got eight rooms. Six of them are filled by people that I know in one case there was a person I had never, ever met before, but he was very highly recommended by someone I trust a lot in a community that I’m a part of. And so he we’re, we’re mutually we’re a part of a community, the both of us, but we hadn’t met before. We didn’t know each other when we didn’t even talk on the phone. I think we texted to do some logistics. So that was with a lot of faith and trust there. And then another person I had only met through zoom for like 45 minutes, do another network that I’m a part of. And we just talked and hit it off. And she was coming down this way anyway. And that just, that just worked out logistically, but everyone was through everyone else I’d met. I was friends with close with, and I felt with blend in with the rest of the group. So there was a little bit of curation there for sure. And that’s one thing that over the past couple of years, I’ve been complimented and I’ve been called a curator of people. And again, that comes through a little bit of practice.
Neville:
I think I called you a curator of people. You certainly are. I’m just trying to think about this from the perspective of, you know, you have a pretty big network already. You’ve been traveling for awhile, you’ve met a ton of people. You know, if I look at like your WhatsApp or something like that, I’m guessing that there’s chats in there with people from like all over the world who were kind of like, you know, Hey, let’s go to this country, let’s go to that country. And so, whatever one of those things works out, you’ve almost got like a waiting list of people to, to meet up with for someone who’s, who’s not quite that advanced of like a social connector yet. Right. They’re there, you know, maybe a few years earlier in that, in that process, you mentioned one thing that you’ve done, which is another version of the same, another version of the same pop-up co-living, but organizing that around a conference, which is actually, I think how Airbnb got started, by the way, like there was a shortage of affordable rooms.
Neville:
And so they like quickly spun up a website where like you could rent literally an air bed on someone’s floor. That was the initial idea or a bed and breakfast to be able to attend that conference. And so what you’ve done for various conferences and like events is, is organized like an Airbnb. That’s the, I mean, the house already exists. You’re just renting it, finding a suitable house that has, you know, what four bedrooms or something. And then texting the list of other people that you know, who are attending and being like, Hey, you know, spend less money than you would on a hotel and come join me in this place. And we’ll all hang out and it’ll be fun. And I think as anyone who’s been to a conference knows, as you said, usually the most value you get out of these conferences is actually like the, the hours that you spend with the people outside of like the lectures and the organized activities and just grabbing a drink afterwards or going for a run or whatever it is, and actually getting to spend some more kind of intimate time, just chatting without an agenda.
Neville:
Yeah.
Alex:
Well, let’s talk about conference takeover, right? Because that’s become, I just made up that phrase a second ago, but that’s become my big strategy. And I’ll say a couple of things about that. So a long time ago, when I was in the offices, I read Keith Ferrazzi has never eat alone, which is a book about networking and business and stuff like that. It’s a good book. And it’s there a lot of great things about it. There’s one chapter I’ve read again and again, which is the guerrilla marketing chap. No, the gorilla conference chapter, I think it’s called gorilla. Like Girija like warrior kind of anyway. So there’s a strategy there for getting to in touch with people that you wouldn’t otherwise get in touch with this conference. A lot of people show up to a conference and they’d go in that we’re talking like per se, professional comp, they go to the sessions and then they go to the things and they, you sit at the lecture and then you go home and that’s, that’s all they do.
Alex:
And so they get a, they get a PD day and they got a professional development day from the office. They get their lunch paid for and they get their parking comped and they set up some tables and that’s what they do for the day. It’s just the way out of the office. And it’s, I’d say mostly ineffective because the reason for a conference is, is, is the conferencing. It’s not the, it’s not the lectures. It’s not the sessions. It’s the being among your, your peers and networking. So if you’re just there for the lectures, you’re getting like 30, 30, two and a half percent of the value. And so, and so this, and I’ll share some things that I came up with, but this, this book, this chapter started, it gave me some ideas around meeting up with people. And so that practicing that in my professional life, I started like playing with that as I went to conferences, I go to different fun.
Alex:
So the first thing is that when I start, if I can do it, know this is a time when it’s not so available, but if I can do it, I start any trip with a conference. So if I’m planning to be somewhere for a month, I’ll look for whatever conference is going on and I’ll volunteer if I can volunteer or attend for the first, for the first couple of days. So I did that in managing, I went to the biggest UX user experience design conference in Latin America. And I volunteered, I didn’t speak Spanish really at the time. So I thought I, that first few hours was really overwhelming. Yeah. And then I’ve found that people who speak English and who want to speak English and Latin speakers who are comfortable speaking, broken Spanish with me. And the last night of that conference, I was at a table that I had arranged at a dinner with 14 ish people, two bottles of aguardiente, the local liquor and three of the three of the conference speakers.
Alex:
And so that started, you know, Friday morning with me just going, this was a mistake. I don’t know how to talk to anybody. And Sunday night being at a table of 14 people and sharing liquor and stories and toast and, and, and I’ve texted some of those people recently, I was looking for some talent for a graphic designer and, and some was able to hook me up with a graphic designer. And that was a year and a half ago, I think. So start scheduled the conference and then I start scheduling little things around the conference. So like, okay, what’s cool in this area, this dinner spot is really famous because there’s a beautiful view of the city, or they do this one cocktail or they do this one thing. Okay. I’ve got that in my head for a day from now. Now as I meet people, I go, Oh, you’re pretty cool. Have you heard about this spot? A couple of us are going to dinner, which in the first time isn’t true. But by the third time, it is a couple of us are going to dinner by the spot. It’s famous for it.
Neville:
They’re into one of those invitations. And I’ve been to a few of those famous Alex dinners. And it’s so funny. Cause like, it seems like this giant intimidating thing, especially again, for someone who isn’t necessarily quite as extroverted as you are or who just doesn’t have a lot of practice doing this, like, you know, organize a dinner for 14 people around a conference sounds intimidating. But actually having watched you do this, it’s, it’s exactly what you just said. It’s I mean, look, all of us can check Yelp or Google or whatever, and figure out a restaurant. That’s not the hard part. Right. But just, just approaching people and like you’re having conversations anyway. And so instead of leaving those conversations, you know, either at the event or around the event, empty handed, so to speak, it’s just finishing with like a small ask. It’s almost like a, you know, like a call to action on a website.
Neville:
You’re just, you’re giving them something to say yes to. And you’re just saying like, yeah, Hey, a bunch of us are having dinner at such and such place tomorrow. It’s very low pressure. And that’s like such a simple thing to say, but just most people don’t do that. They’ll just wait for the invitation from somebody else. And everyone who gets that invitation. I think most people say, yes, they’re all sort of like relieved because otherwise, especially if they’re traveling and they’re just there for conference, they have no plans because you’ve given them. Yeah, it’s a gift. You’ve given them something to say yes to that. Now they can be like, Oh cool. Now I have plans. I don’t have to make them myself.
Alex:
And even if they say no, they’re there, it’s they, they like, they like that. They’ve been asking invited. They remember you for that. And I don’t invite just everybody. I don’t say, Oh, come on over. I go, Oh, this person, I would like, I would genuinely be interested in knowing this person better. Some of the people that I know might like to meet them. So that, that comes up and it’s also a w it doesn’t get the 14. Cause I got 14 people to say, yes, it gets to 14 because six people said yes. And a handful of them invited friends, Oh, invited somebody else. Like I changed it. So either they said, great. I’m here with my friend. Can I bring my friend? Of course you can. Or they use it and they say, Hey, we’re going to dinner with this guy who set up this thing. I bet you can come along. Do you want to come along? And so like, when I show up to the table, I recognize six of the people. I recognize half the half the crew, the other half are, are, are chained in there somehow. So by the way, there’s a trick for this
Neville:
Party where you invite five people, 300
Alex:
Show up. There’s a, there’s a trick for this one. You call the restaurant, you ask for a table for eight, this isn’t, this is my trick. It’s usually eight. Cause I assume that that somewhere between six and 12, people are going to show up. So eight is an easy number to go down to and go up to. And if it goes up to 14, then they just throw another table over there. But that’s, that’s the, that’s the trick. You go, you pick a number and 88 is a perfect number. May make your goal, make your goal 10. If it drops down to eight. That’s cool. If it drops down to six, that’s cool too. So I feel,
Neville:
I mean, I know there’s a lot on the conference side that we could dig into and there’s more that I’m excited to hear about, but I feel like I would be remiss and anyone listening would be getting to the point where like, you know, they’re sort of wondering, did we record this a couple of years ago? Because you know, it’s, it’s February 2nd, 2021. We’re just about a year into this pandemic where I am in Spain. Now restaurants and bars are like totally closed for indoor dining and outdoor actually, as, as, as the last couple of weeks, it’s only takeaway other places are more open, but certainly like big conferences and things like that aren’t happening as much these days or, or at all. I mean, you mentioned one of many, but I guess that was pre pandemic. You still are traveling well, I’ll, I’ll interrupt my question and point out the fact that you still are traveling throughout the pandemic. I mean, you’ve been in Mexico, you’re in Columbia now. I mean, how’s that going? Let’s just talk about that for a little bit, because that’s pretty,
Alex:
So, so, so I want to say, first of all, I, I don’t want to get sick and I think it’s a real, it’s a real thing that people get sick because pandemic the pandemic, that means that there’s an illness of Iris and people can get it and they get hurt by it. And some people in really big ways and permanent ways. And so that’s, I want to say that’s, for me, that’s a real thing. And so I have precautions around that. So I, I spend time with people, but I try to keep that to a pretty small group of people where things are starting to open up and more stuff is allowed. And I’m seeing personally am seeing large groups of people, especially foreigners and travelers, who are lucky to have the freedom and the money to be able to, and the ability of community to get big groups together.
Alex:
I don’t think it’s a great idea. And so when I witnessed that happening, I keep my distance. I’m just not, not personally comfortable with it. So that’s one thing. One thing I feel like I’ve learned during this time too, is that I’m valuing small groups more and I’m valuing the connection of the intimate connection to small groups. I’ve been a person who just like talk to this person for 30 seconds and this person for 65 seconds and this part, and then I have no deep connections. I just have these really superficial connections. So, so for a couple of reasons, I’ve moved to much smaller groupings. So that’s one thing to say. I’ve been, I’m a more of a curator of online communities now, what, even if they’re local online communities. So one is a, I’m a regular attendee of a writer’s group that gets together on zoom, like for three to three to five hours a day, and they’re all in their homes.
Alex:
And they’re just kinda, they’re just working on their projects, whether it’s writing or whatever we do kind of a Pomodoro technique. So we’ll work for about 45 minutes and then take a 10 minute break to discuss what we worked, what we’re going to work on. And then just chit chat, talk about the weather, the news, whatever gossip we have in our little group of of eight or nine people. And so that’s one thing and, and I’ve actually been a sporadic member. These guys are most of them are on every single day together for five hours. And over the course of the last year, they’ve built a heck of a community virtually.
Neville:
So your virtual co-working, so you joined like a session and then I use, I use Pomodoros too. I think it’s a great way. I mean, we’re getting into productivity here. Why not? But I think that’s a really great way to, to stay on track and especially to deal with the sort of monotony of like, if you’re working from home and you’re just sort of in that same space all day, and everything’s sort of, kind of blends together into this gray mush of like it’s sort of work, it’s sort of not really working hard enough, like there’s, I’m getting notifications from Facebook, there’s laundry in the background, you know, it’s, it’s very easy when you work from home to sort of end up in that like horrible middle zone of like, you don’t really feel like you’re free and you’re done for the day, but you also don’t feel like you’re getting much done and Pomodoros are one great solution to that.
Neville:
It’s, it’s exactly what you said. It’s a set period of time working. So it can be 25 minutes. It can be 45 minutes. You can find what works for you, but you set a timer and you can find free ones online. That’ll do that in your browser. Or you can use the one in your phone and you work for, you know, whether it’s 25 or 45 minutes straight on one specific task, I think is really the main idea that you’re, it’s like a focused block of time on something from your to-do list for that day. And then you take a few minutes off I’ve I think the usual is five. You mentioned 10 minutes. So you could do that just by yourself, right? W you can just set a timer on your phone and work that way, but you’re doing this in a group.
Alex:
We do it with friends and so we can do it online. And then I do it, I do it in my home and other people’s homes as well. And so that’s a way to keep the pod kind of small. And so, so that’s the thing is one I show up and I have friends already in these cities, because I mean, we’ve talked about this novel, but in my opinion, they’re like, what? 25 30 nomad cities. So after you, have you been doing this for about a year and you’ve been a little bit social and you’ve gone to the tours, you, you just, you just have people in your WhatsApp group, you say I’m in the city. And somebody says, me too. Or my friend is so you meet people, you can connect in that way. And then once that happens, or you get on the Facebook groups, or you start your own WhatsApp group, or you, whatever, then you might invite people to co-work at your house.
Alex:
And so that was a big part. That’s what I do now. I mean, that was a big part of my time in Mexico. That’s probably my lifesaver in Mexico. At the beginning of the pandemic, we had a pot of about five or six of us in every morning, most mornings four or five people show up to my house. We do a YouTube workout where you like, we like black ladies with Cassie and yoga with Adrian and burpees challenges and all that stuff. And we work out for like 30 minutes and then we make breakfast together and we chit chat and then we pull out our laptops and get to work and we break for lunch. And, and it’s, it’s a little different than office cause we’re hanging out on balconies and couches. And, but it’s the same thing. One thing I’ll say that another trick I learned for that. So I’ve, and these are the things that I’ve been doing again, pre pandemic, because I was traveling around, I didn’t have an office. I didn’t have these like natural institutions that people connect in. You know, I missed the, the thing I miss about being an office is like running into people in the hallway and taking a walk to the coffee. And so one trick is,
Neville:
Yeah, that’s what comes up. And it sounds like that’s what you’re recreating. Right? It’s just those, it’s not, it’s not, it’s not necessarily like, like we have tools and ways for like, Hey, we need to meet about this topic. You know, we can screen share and have like a Google doc open and use zoom or whatever. Like the technology is there to facilitate like the actual work it’s that serendipity. And just to kind of keeping up company culture and just, yeah, chit chatting with someone that you don’t have some active project with, but they just happen to work down the hall from you and you bump into each other and ask, you know, how their kids are doing or whatever, but sorry, you were saying,
Alex:
And that’s it. Well, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll pick up that word before I say the trick and that’s, that’s the serendipity. I often talk about creating serendipity or making opportunity for serendipity to occur. So Sarah serendipity is this, it’s a nice thing that happens at the right time and the right way. But for that to happen, I used to say, you have to leave your house, but you have to leave your bubble or whatever you have to get out of that. That’s how serendipity happens. That’s how cool, cool magic coincidence happens. So a trick for coworking, cause I’ve done it. I’ve done co-working days a lot is to all agree on some stopping points. Cause, cause what happens? You’re like, I guess I could go for a sandwich. Oh, I’ve got this meeting. So you go through, if you go through the day like that, then no one knows when you get to have the social time, because the whole point is to kind of be with other people. Right. So it helps to prepare.
Neville:
Yeah, that’s totally true. I work in co-working spaces and just sit there. I mean three pandemic and just do my work and always feel like, well, I’m here to work. So I work and I just work next to other people and have zero social time with them. And I’m like, well, that was pointless. As I listened to someone chewing while I was working, I could have just done that at home without the joint.
Alex:
So pre pre-planning the breaks and saying, Oh, I’ve got space to take some. I got about 45 minutes here. I can take some lunch or we can order something and take a walk around even like five minutes to take a walk around the block, go outside, literally walked down to the end of the street and walk back again. But, but preplan, when those breaks are that’s, that’s how you start to make that connection.
Neville:
We’re working spaces that have that big like factory train whistle that tells everyone when it’s time for lunch,
Alex:
You know what they’re there? Those things existed for a reason. And I don’t think we should discount them. Yeah. Yeah.
Neville:
It’s I say it jokingly, but I really think there is something to that, because again, it’s like, you know, so, so much of the conversation around social media and technology more generally is like, it’s that it’s, that we’re in that era of abundance and we’re like the goldfish that you just kind of keep feeding it and you just keep sprinkling the food and it’ll just keep eating the food. And it’s like, for us, that’s the end of the stream of emails, notifications and work that could be done. Like there’s just no upper limit to like tweaking the SEO on your website or some other nonsense like that, which has value. But if you just never kind of give yourself a break, whatever, meet people. Yeah. You just end up like this. Yeah. Isolated person sitting there at a screen hunched over a keyboard desk, like surface for the rest of your life. Okay.
Alex:
It’s really, it’s really tough right now. I’m I’m thinking as I listened about this time, when, when people are, I guess, afraid to maybe afraid to interact I think there’s just this balance and I, I don’t know what to do to help with that. And that’s one thing where, where it’s like, I I’ve one, one thing that I I’ve gone to visit some family during this time, a couple of times actually. And one thing that I did was beforehand had a long and maybe a hand broken up into pieces long conversation over, over a few days or a week or two about what the, what the, what the boundaries are and what the limitations are for other people and what they’re comfortable with. And for myself, I need to know mine as well. Minor, a little more open than some others.
Alex:
I’m willing to go to go to a patio restaurant, but I’m not willing to sit inside for example, but I go in and checking with the people that I’m, that I’m wanting to connect with. And just before I meet with them in person really going, what are, what are your limitations here? What are your boundaries? What’s going to make you uncomfortable? Can I, and can I do it? Can I do it? You know? And so I had, I went to visit family and beforehand we had about a two weeks conversation where I was like, I really need you to tell me. And they, they probably didn’t even know yet for themselves. And they hadn’t articulated. I really need you to tell me your limitations and your boundaries, and I need to hear them and I need to speak them back to you and have you have, and have me feel that I understand them and you feel that I understand them and then decide if I can and then, and then decide for myself if I can go hang out. If I can meet those boundaries, if they can meet my boundaries and then decide, because if I can’t do it, then, then there’s no connection. There’s just a lot of worry and anxiety. So I’d rather, I’d rather not hang out. I’d rather do it over zoom. If I, if we’re going to be on top of each other. So let’s go there then, because I wouldn’t presume to
Neville:
Kind of tell people, you know, what’s safe and what’s not obviously in different countries, the situation is pretty different, but everybody has brought, you know, again, we’re a year into this now everybody’s sort of developed their kind of comfort level for what types of interactions they’re willing to have. And for a lot of people, that’s basically zero kind of in-person interaction with anyone who’s outside their immediate household. But within that, like, you know, within this world where we’re all on zoom, we’re all on FaceTime, whatever we’re, we’re interacting, especially within businesses. I’m curious because this, this question comes up over and over again. And that is, you know, in this world that we’re in where it’s like, okay, great. Everybody can remote work. You know, hopefully eventually we can all travel again. We can all have more freedom. But in the meantime, how do you create communities or a sense of a community spirit, let’s call it within like a team environment, because I know this is part of the work that you do with your clients, right? So if we’re all just on FaceTime, we’re all working from home. Everybody’s remote. No, there is no office. How do you, like, how do you keep that sense together of togetherness that we are all part of some organization or team or that we even know each other beyond just like, you know, who committed the code today or who updated the website or last edited the document?
Alex:
You know, I, even before this time, I remember being in a debate with a CEO who was, who was saying, well, you gotta be in the office. You can’t work remote because we’re, we want to have a culture here. We want to have a culture. And my response to that is a CEO supposed to be a visionary. And if you can envision what it might be like to have a culture in a different build of culture and a different kind of circumstance, then you may not be the best person to be a CEO.
Neville:
Did you just say that or think that I said half of it. Yeah.
Speaker 3:
I’ve seen their reaction. That’d be the best person
Neville:
To run this company. Seeing as you have a total lack of
Speaker 3:
Vision, it’s just not switched to your vision because again,
Neville:
Have these tools to work remotely. Like, look, I’ve had this conversation many times where I’m like, you know, yeah, you can get the job done remotely just because someone’s not in the office. Doesn’t mean they’re not working. Like, you know, you can measure productivity, not in terms of hours spent at a chair in a chair, but rather based on these milestones and like, you know, we all know now all the tools that are out there and how to do the work, but how do you do the other side? How do you have that sense of community?
Alex:
Some of it’s just the standard, like try to try to understand people, ask people about their lives and listen, and remember, and, and repeat it back to them and share things that remind them of you, remind you of them, things like that. Like really, really stuff that’s never, ever changed. One really cool thing. I worked with a company called Osso VR and they are they create virtual reality learning experiences for surgeons. And every Friday they get on their headsets and they play virtual reality games yet with each other, for, for a couple of hours. And partly, partly to kind of play and understand what they’re building better, but also partly, I mean, partly to play with each other, to have fun and get to know each other and being in competition. And so that’s, that’s a cool way. I think sometimes this stuff feels a little bit forced where it’s like, and it’s trivia night on Friday night like office parties often do, but I think coworking is another great way.
Alex:
So one thing I’ve done with, with companies is we’ll set up a T same similar sized length of time, 90 ish, minutes of coworking. So it’s just open office hours. Get on, get on zoom, put on your cameras, work on whatever you’re working on, but we’re just, we’re just hanging out in the same. We’re just all working in the same virtual place at the same time. So it’s a little, I like that a lot. And then every now and then someone pipes up and goes, Hey, I got a question about this thing in the same way. They might shoot off shout out in an office and then people get into a conversation and then they stop. And it’s just a little bit of that. So that’s a really simple one.
Neville:
As you’re describing that I can picture, you know, a few people that I know who would benefit from something like that. Like they, they feel pretty lonely, you know, just kind of being stuck at home and just sitting on the other end of a computer with no one really there. And I can think of a few people I know who would absolutely hate that. And it would be like the entire reason I wanted to get out of an office was to not be like sitting in a cubicle farm, or I need to hear what everybody else is thinking and doing. Like, I just want focused deep work with no distractions. And I suppose that’s part of the answer too, right. Is just creating these types of things and inviting people to them. But recognizing that, you know, what works for some, like, someone might love that office trivia night, like, Hey, it’s after hours, I finished my work. You know, it’s fun to just have a chance to, to hang out with colleagues and not talk about work. And other people will be like, you know, that’s the last thing I want to do. I already have my friends and family, you know, I just work with you people. And then I just want to go off and do, you know, be me after hours. I don’t want to go to the happy hour or whatever.
Alex:
I guess I have mixed feelings about that. Cause I think on the one hand, you’re absolutely right. And it’s different, different courses for different horses as my dad says. And I, and I think if we ask people, what if we asked or tried to like, think more about what would be fun for the personalities that are on our team? I think that would make these kinds of things more successful. I also think, I think people can, we can give people room to opt out. I also feel that there’s a certain amount of social awareness and cohesion and participation that matters and counts. And so this isn’t about necessarily remote working. But I remember in the past a very good friend of mine, who’s a developer. We had we’re in a big company and the CEO of the big giant company who lives in it lives and works in another city, was coming to do certain an all hands and say, I’ve never in the two years, I two, three years, I’d been there.
Alex:
I hadn’t seen this person ever come over and he’s, he’s opening up the questions and doing these things. And so we all gathered the department, the 60 or 70 of us in the apartment gathered up in a room to listen and share and ask questions and my buddies. And I see my buddy as we’re going in and he’s just sitting at his desk continuing to work. And I say, Hey man, where do you want to come to this thing? He’s like, no, I don’t, I don’t see why I need to do that. I don’t really care. I just want to do my work, blah, blah, blah. And I said, you know, there’s, there’s more to it than just that, right. There’s a certain element of a, you might want to know what’s going on around here. The, you might want people to think that you want to know what’s going on around here. Like there’s a bit of like the signaling
Neville:
Value of attending meetings. Yep. I suppose.
Alex:
And I understand that cause I, I hear people as, you know, signaling this and signal there’s, there’s a bit of for sure, but there’s also like, what are you here for? What are you, what are you with? Where are you on this team for? What are you in this organization for? If it’s not to participate on some level in the, in the mission that we’re on. And so when the, when the, when the person who sets kind of the, the mission comes and gives you of, of, of in this case, a I think 15,000 person organization comes and hangs out with 60 people, you know, and gives him some intimate time. And, and for whatever you feel about that, like politicking and I got to, you know, boot kissing and whatever people say, there’s still a little bit of water. If, if you’re not here for this, what are, what are you here for?
Alex:
What are you here for? And so if I’m running an organization and since I didn’t want to, and what I do is work with CEOs and work with the leaders of startups, we’re, we’re looking, we’re building teams and we’re building teams of people who are both talent, talented enough, you know, good enough to do the ware, but also interested enough to be here, whether it’s on this project that we’re doing, or with this group of people that we’re doing it with. And, and, and maybe, you know, this whole call we’ve been talking about me and how social extrovert I am. Maybe, maybe I have this big lens, a big bias lens on that. And this is coming from a social bias, but that’s, that’s my bias. And I think there’s importance to it.
Neville:
I think you’re right. And I think there’s even an element of like skill stacking or something there, which comes up so often in these conversations. But this idea that like, it’s really, really, really hard to be like the best, you know, react native developer in the world or, or even in the top hundred or top thousand or whatever, if I could just have a hard skill skillset, but you could be a really good react native developer and be the one who, who goes the extra mile and shows that they’re really, really interested in the mission of the company. And that’s probably, you know, a much easier way sort of at the margin to stand out and get hired in an organization when you’re talking about building teams
Alex:
Or just enough. I mean, the, the only, the, honestly, if I take all my interviewing, you know, all my team building down to like just two things, it’s justice, can you demonstrate that you can do the work that I need done? Can you demonstrate that you can do that work with my team? That’s it, that’s all. I need to know every, everyone with their fancy interview questions. Oh, well, tell me about a time when you did this. What is your, is your house organized? Is your closet, all this stuff I don’t care about? I don’t care about any of it. Show me some work or I’ll give you some that looks like the work I’m going to assign you and show me, you can do that work with the team that I have here and that’s it. And so I, and so that’s the thing like you got, you gotta be good enough, just good enough. You don’t have to be, I don’t even need my teammates to be awesome or astoundingly passionate. I need them to be good enough at what they’re doing and interested enough in what we want to get done and that’s it. But I got to see it.
Neville:
And we’re talking a lot about, you know, we kind of switched into sort of a business context here. We’re talking a lot about, you know, existing teams bringing people into a team within an organization. And we kind of mentioned earlier idea that like conferences are on hold right now. And conferences are also, you know, probably the best way that I know of to create that serendipity, to get to know people again, in sort of a business context, you just to increase your network. It sounds cheesy, but like, you know, any of those kinds of things like basically,
Alex:
And it doesn’t have to be, I mean, that’s, that’s the thing is, is that comes up in the resistance is it doesn’t have to be cheesy. It could be. I like these people and I like the things that they do. And I want to do more things like that with these people
Neville:
Where I’m going with this idea is that, you know, there’s, as we’ve been saying, there’s these various tools out there to keep doing the work that you were doing in an office. And then there’s these other tools out there, or techniques, or just philosophy around kind of like having a bit of team spirit and all that. And I’m thinking in my head, well, what about the person who wants to change jobs, who isn’t on a team who just graduated, who’s looking to break in, you know, if you don’t already have that network, you’re not, you’re not sort of maintaining, but you’re trying to build, and you’re doing that in an environment and the world right now where it’s et cetera for a year. You know, we haven’t really had the opportunity to go to those places, to meet those people, to have those connections, to invite them to the 14 person dinner.
Neville:
And we don’t know when that’s coming back. One point of difference. You and I have is that I love Twitter. I hate LinkedIn. And I don’t like, I don’t hate the company. It’s not like some, some vendetta or anything like that. And it’s just like, I log into LinkedIn and I’ve got like 16 message requests and like connection invitations from people with a pretty sure they’re fake names, because like, the message will be from like Steve Johnson, but like, I’ll read it and it’ll just read it as like, hello, you over like new database for the website. I can help. Great. Steve. I’m like, okay. And I’ve just got like 300 of those. And I just, I don’t see any value in it. Like the, I just have a feeling that the only time people log into LinkedIn is either when they’re looking for a job or when they’re trying to sell something.
Neville:
Someone said recently, I think on Twitter that it’s like those chamber of commerce business events that you go to. And it’s just, those are zero decision makers in the room. Everybody is just, they’re selling to everybody else. And if anyone listening is like a member of the chamber of commerce, I’m sorry, I will, I will leave it there and turn it to you and say like, you don’t have the same opinion from what I understand, you get value out of LinkedIn. So, so let’s put all that together. How the hell do you use LinkedIn to go beyond your, your current network and either meet people or find new opportunities or what’s the strategy?
Alex:
I don’t know that I do. I use LinkedIn because I’ve got 5,000 connections on LinkedIn and I’ve got a hundred connections on Instagram. So that’s, that’s a big part of it. I have had people come to me through LinkedIn and asked me to work with them. That’s happened twice, which is not a lot, but it’s happened often when I’m talking to people a lot more than the usual nonsense that I get. And I’ve had a handful of really interesting conversations that have led to me making an introduction to someone else or led to someone to make an introduction for me. And every time I talked to somebody in my industry about work, they want to see my LinkedIn profile. And so a lot of my LinkedIn activity is to just show up. It’s a place where I show up and that’s really, I just, it’s just the one I chose.
Alex:
I don’t have a necessarily a big preference for it that said, I’d like to answer a different question that you asked that’s related, which is how do you do this? If you don’t have anything in the network. And right now in this virtual remote world, I stepped into a new network. I signed up for a course. It was really in my mind and an expensive course. It’s the kind of course where I call it an investment. That’s how expensive it is. Not a hundred bucks, 2000, but it’s online. There’s certainly there’s online modules, but I don’t pay a few thousand dollars for an online modules because I have YouTube and all these other things. So there’s coaching and there’s a community and there’s stuff. There’s other things that I like. And so much like in conference takeover, I’m coming in and I’m taking the I’m in the courses.
Alex:
I want to learn the things, business practices and sales and things like that. And there, because I want to learn the things and get better at it. And I’m interested in the owner of the course I’m having like Bing Bing zones, but then while I’m doing it with the other students, I’m interacting with them. And I’m noticing initiatives that, that we have together. So for example, I’m on LinkedIn a lot, and there’s like a hundred, a person, LinkedIn challenge, a hundred days of posting LinkedIn challenge. And I said, okay, I’m going to make a group for that within this group. So I’ve got a LinkedIn group with all these, with all these folks who are on this challenge so we can support each other. And through that, I’ve had three, three or so, there will ever be 50 people in the group. Two or three of them are doing, are working with the same kind of clients that I work with.
Alex:
So we’ve had some zoom calls and we just talk and make friends and talk about how we might be able help each other out and get to know each other. And then we, now I know some things about them. So I send them articles, or I asked them questions about their life because I care not, not necessarily to get ahead or to get something out of them because I, I, I’m curious about their life. And, and in about 20 minutes, I’ve got a mini mastermind with four of them. And so looking through the whole crowd, I reached out to one, two, three, four, five, six, and had half an hour, you know, zoom calls just to get to know each other. And then I said, you know, you seem to care about growing in this thing. I care about growing into this thing. I want to be really intentional. You want to be intentional? Do you want to do it with me? And they say, yeah, sometimes they say no, but they say, yeah. And then, and then a couple more people do or they invite somebody now I’ve got a five-person mastermind and it’s the same, it’s the dinner technique just done online. Right? It’s the same thing.
Neville:
I’m just sitting here smiling, like an idiot grinning away because it’s hearing it. And I’m like, this is exactly it. You just like search replaced, like come to dinner with like join my private LinkedIn group or something like that. And instead of a conference, based on an anchor and instead of a conference, it’s an online course. And, you know, aside from just being an opportunity to meet people, one of the similarities that, you know, maybe this is obvious, but I really feel the need to point it out is that they’re sort of doing the filtering work for you, you know, and some of the groups that you and I have the wrong too, there’s a high bar for entry. I don’t know why they let us knuckleheads in. And, and when you pay a few thousand dollars for an online course, it’s not about the wealth of the people, but it’s about the commitment.
Neville:
Like anyone who’s willing to pay that amount of money has already spent some time thinking this, and you used the word intentional. I think that’s a perfect way to describe it, right? So they are, they’re more serious than average, let’s say. And so you’ve already, but by starting there, not only are you getting a chance to meet people, but someone else has already filtered the group down for you, to people who are serious about something. And then you’re doing another level of that and saying to them, you know, you’re having those zoom calls and you’re also using your dinner script, but replaced with, join me on this network or in this coworking or in this LinkedIn challenge or whatever the whatever you’re offering. And if they’re willing to say yes to that, right, they’ve sort of stepped up once again. And so the people that you’re ending up with, I think are probably, you know, there’s just, there’s a much higher kind of caliber there than just, you know, if you just start spanning people with random requests
Alex:
And, and it’s an anchor event and it is, has an intention in that commitment and all of that. I want to add that, you know, I jokingly call it conference takeover, but I’m also really conscious because, because I do become, especially with smaller groups, I do become seen really quickly. So in the Colombian conference, you know, there are 10,000 people in a building. So there, you know, if I’m gathering up 14 or 15 people or whatever, it’s not, it’s not really noticed. It doesn’t feel threatening. I feel like in one conferences I’ve been at, I think there’s a conference of organizers. We felt a little threatened by it though. I don’t have my own product to sell, or I’m just, I’m just making friends. But in this one, you know, the course owner, you know, the people running the thing, they seem just very pleased.
Alex:
They’re like great. You know, and the one that we’re in everyone seemed pleased. Anytime, anytime people are coordinated and having fun and enjoying the, the cross-pollination of the group, if someone’s doing that, you usually have to, if you’re, if you’re organizes you, you might not even think to pay someone for this. But if you did, you would pay somebody to do this kind of like network building within your own network. And so I’m, I’m, I’m just, I I’m inclusive and respectful and promoting of the, the, the original organizers. And I say, how great is this thing that this, these people put together? Wow. And I, and if I ever feel like I’m in a place where I might step on toes, I will step out and ask and say, Hey, is this, you know, I, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna organize this extra thing within what you have not, not take away from not outside of, but within this thing that you have, I’d like to, to create, to, to bring people together in this sort of way. And, and generally people are thrilled by it. But I do say, I think it’s important. I like to, to give honoring and gratitude to the things that I appreciate.
Neville:
Yeah. I think that is important. I’m glad you pointed that out because otherwise someone might get the impression that what we’re saying here is like, you know, show up at a conference and sell your Cutco knives or whatever. And that’s not it at all. It’s a, I mean, I guess just knowing you and having been on the other end of this, I sort of just already assumed that, but that you’re, that you’re doing it differently. And, and from what I’ve seen, what you’re doing, it’s not selling anything. It’s not, self-serving, you’re showing up and saying like, you know, to that lonely person sitting by themselves at the conference, you know, Hey, I’m going to take an interest. You obviously, you’re not saying that that’s what you’re doing, talking to them, being genuinely interested. And then, yeah, if it’s a good conversation, inviting them to join some other kind of ingroup, right. If, like I said earlier, it feels nice to be invited. And then, you know, whether it’s a dinner or whatever, it’s basically just connecting more of those people together and saying, Hey, you know, I was just talking to Steve over here, he’s building this thing. And, and it sounds a lot like something you guys are working on, maybe you could work together, or maybe you want to know each other, just making those connections with no, with no ask, basically, other than just, would you like to join us
Alex:
Thing? I want people I would want people to do for me. I, when I sit and I, I wish I could go, I wish I could be a part of something. Cool. I wish some, a group of people would invite me to do something fun. I wish I could do something fun with a group of people, go to dinner, be asked to collaborate, mastermind with people. I just want that. I want that in my life. And it doesn’t just show up for me. It’s not just showing up sometimes, but usually it’s not just showing up. So it’s not showing. And that’s true for most people, right? It’s not just showing up. So I got to create it. I got to try to create it. And so that’s all I’m doing is saying, what would I love to do? What would I love to get out of this experience, connections with other people, a fun time.
Alex:
And so I just tried to create that and that’s it, that’s, that’s all it is. And, and the logistics of it are, what is it that I’d want to do? How can I schedule it? You know, how there is a logistic part? Like how close is this restaurant to the conference center? The farther it is, the less likely people will go to it. There is a little bit of that, but you learn that you learn that, but a big part of it is just, huh, I’m sitting here by myself or I’m alone in this endeavor of learning. I wish that I wasn’t, I’d love to meet more people like me. What have I invited someone to join me in this? I love it.
Neville:
That’s a perfect place to leave it. Let’s leave it there. My last question for you is just, you know, in the spirit of connecting and creating communities, I feel like I obviously have to ask, like, how can people listening or watching this connect to you? What’s the best place
Alex:
I’ll say. In my professional life, I’m a fractional COO for technology startups. You know how when companies grow too quickly. Things start to fall apart. I make sure the right people and systems and routines are in place that they don’t fall apart. And I support the CEOs of technology startups in that effort. So most of my work is on LinkedIn because most of my people are in LinkedIn. So that’s https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexsalinsky/ I’d be happy to connect there. And I’ve got, if someone were to send me a message and say, let’s talk, I’m usually open to talk. So that’s how to connect. Awesome.
Neville:
Make sure we link to that in the show notes as well. Alex, it’s been a pleasure. Thank you for sharing so much of your knowledge and wisdom of creating communities all over the world, wherever you go.
Alex:
Thanks Neville. I really enjoyed it. Thanks for inviting me.